#197 – Jocko Willink: War, Leadership, and Discipline

#197 – Jocko Willink: War, Leadership, and Discipline

Lex Fridman Podcast

Jocko Willink is a retired Navy SEAL, co-author of Extreme Ownership, and host of Jocko Podcast. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Linode: https://linode.com/lex to get $100 free credit - Indeed: https://indeed.com/lex to get $75 credit - SimpliSafe: https://simplisafe.com/lex and use code LEX to get a free security camera - Ground News: https://ground.news/lex EPISODE LINKS: Jocko's Twitter: https://twitter.com/jockowillink Jocko's Website: https://jocko.com/ Jocko's Podcast: https://jockopodcast.com/ Extreme Ownership (book): https://amzn.to/3qYmcgh Discipline Equals Freedom (book): https://amzn.to/3hFXOMa The Dichotomy of Leadership (book): https://amzn.to/36ehH7C PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https:
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Transcript

SpeakerA
0m 0s
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2m 31s

The following is a conversation with Jaco Willink, a retired US Navy SEAL, coauthor of extreme ownership dichotomy of leadership, discipline equals freedom, and many other excellent books, and he's the host of Jacob podcast. Jacob spent 20 years in the SEAL teams. He was the commander of SEAL Team Three's task unit, Bruiser, that became the most highly decorated special operations unit of the Iraq war. This conversation was intense and to the point. We agreed to talk again probably many times. And what I find very interesting, aside from the talk of leadership, is the conversation about military tactics, of specific battles in history. Quick mention of our sponsors Linode indeed simplisafe and ground news. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. Since it's the 4 July, a holiday in the United States, let me say a few words about what this country, my country, the United States of America, means to me. First, by way of background, I was born and raised in the Soviet Union just long enough to get a bit of the russian soul, an appreciation of soviet history, music, culture of wrestling and mathematics, of engineering and philosophy, stoicism and humor, tragedies and triumphs of war and revolutions, all in ways that are uniquely russian. I do happen to at times mention that I'm russian. This is what I mean, that I got a bit of that russian soul. But of course, who I really am is an american. This country gave me the opportunity, the freedom, to become and to be who I am, to stand as an individual. This seemingly simple freedom, to be a sovereign human being in the face of all the beauty and cruelty of life, is why I love this country. Much of life can be unfair, unjust, even tragic. But this is the country where if I'm clever enough or smart enough and just get lucky enough, I have a chance to dream big and make my dream a reality. The United States welcomed me, my family, and millions of immigrants throughout its history so that we can make something meaningful of ourselves. To love, to dream, to create, to find joy and meaning. It lets me be the weird kid I am who wears a suit, talks about love, and has a fascination with robots. I know some people these days have an aversion to pride and love for their country.

SpeakerB
2m 31s
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2m 34s

I don't. I love America.

SpeakerA
2m 34s
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4m 14s

I also love humanity. I believe these two, patriotism and humanism are not in conflict, much like loving your family and loving your country are not in conflict. They are all manifestations of the human spirit, longing to strive for a better world. I was born a Russian, but I believe I will die an American, a proud American. Hopefully not too soon, but life is short. I already had one hell of a fun journey, so I'm ready to go when it's time. As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now. No ads in the middle. I find those to be annoying. As a listener, I think they get in the way of the conversation. I also do give you timestamps. I hope you don't skip because I try to make these interesting. But if you do skip, please still check out the sponsors by clicking the links in the description. It is the best way to support this podcast. This episode is sponsored by Linode Linux Virtual Machines anytime I mention Linux anywhere brings joy to my heart. Linode is an awesome compute infrastructure that lets you develop, deploy and scale what applications you build faster and easier. This is both for small personal projects and huge systems, both things I hope to be involved with in the future. It's lower cost than AWS, but more important to me is the simplicity quality of the customer service with real humans 24 7365 as opposed to all the fake humans trying to pass the touring test on Twitter. I honestly think computer infrastructure done well both customer service, ease of use, debugging, maintenance, understanding the pricing structure, all those things. That's essential. I really like what Linode is doing.

SpeakerB
4m 14s
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4m 16s

Also competition for AWS.

SpeakerA
4m 16s
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5m 26s

It's very good. Competition is always good, especially in this space where more and more of our world is running on computer infrastructure. The bloodline of our human civilization is becoming computation. So companies like Linode are essential. Their tagline is if it runs on Linux, it runs on linode. Visit linode.com lex and click on the create free account button to get started with $100 in free credit. That's linode.com lex. This episode is also sponsored by indeed a hiring website. I've used them as part of many hiring efforts I've done for the teams I've led in the past. They have tools like indeed instant match, giving you quality candidates whose resumes on indeed fit your job description immediately. If doing ad reads was a job, I would not get hired by anybody. I'm terrible at this. I like these companies. I'm just not very good at emoting my passion for them. I'm not sure if emoting is a word. I'm just going to keep running with it without looking it up. Hence why I would never get hired to do ad reads anyway. Right now get a free $75 sponsored job credit to upgrade your job post@indeed.com.

SpeakerB
5m 26s
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5m 27s

Lex.

SpeakerA
5m 27s
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7m 54s

Get it@indeed.com? Lex offer is valid through September 30 terms and conditions apply. Join 3 million businesses that use indeed by going to indeed Lex. I've used it. I love it. Check it out. You might love it too. This show is also sponsored by Simplisafe, a home security company. It was designed by Chad and Eleanor Lawrence to be simple and effective. I don't know why they asked me to mention the names of the creators, but I think the point is that there's real human beings that really care behind this company and that actually when it comes to security systems is very important. It is indeed simple. Takes 30 minutes to set up. You can customize the system for your needs on simplisafe.com lex. I have it set up in my place and I love it. I do try to live life not paranoid, because I think minimization of stress versus maximization of safety is the more effective way to live life for me. But I do make sure I make intelligent decisions of how to protect myself, how to protect my data, how to protect my physical safety, especially as my platform grows, it gets trickier and trickier because I do want to keep myself open and fragile. All the people I meet on the street that recognize me from the podcast are just incredible people, and I really enjoy those conversations, so I never want to close myself off from that. Anyway, go to simplisafe.com lux to customize your system and get a free security camera plus a 60 day risk free trial. Again, that's simplisafe.com lex. This show is also sponsored by Ground News, an apolitical news website that helps me get all perspectives on a story and analyze my blind spots politically. They draw from 50,000 outlets across the world and across the political spectrum. The point is to see every side and come to your own conclusions. I think this approach is the future of news. That's why I'm a big supporter of ground news. That's why I took them on as a sponsor. I see my membership there as support for the ideal of what they stand for, not just this particular company. Hopefully you can see it the same way. It's been said before, but probably can't be said enough, is that clickbait journalism is truly damaging our ability as a society to have difficult long form conversations.

SpeakerB
7m 54s
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7m 56s

As we strive towards the truth.

SpeakerA
7m 56s
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8m 43s

Truth is not an easy thing to arrive at. It requires understanding context. It requires understanding history. It requires understanding lived experiences of different people, to be empathetic, to be data driven, to be rigorous with your analysis, all of those things. And clickbait journalism is completely antithetical to that. So that's why I think you should support ground news and other companies of that kind anyway. Try them out by signing up at Ground news Lex. It's inexpensive, so it's definitely worth it. But like I said, it's also a good way to support all the different efforts that try to fix our current state of journalism and the media. Go to ground news Slash Lex to sign up and show your support. This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with Jaco Willink.

SpeakerB
9m 2s
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9m 9s

Is it tragic or beautiful to you that some of the closest bonds that are formed between people are through war?

SpeakerC
9m 9s
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9m 17s

Often I think it's both tragic and beautiful, and for the obvious reasons.

SpeakerB
9m 20s
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9m 24s

What are the obvious reasons? Why is it so obvious?

SpeakerC
9m 26s
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9m 39s

Well, it's tragic because a lot of people die. And it's beautiful because you form bonds with people that are very difficult to break once you've been through them.

SpeakerB
9m 40s
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9m 46s

What is it about the trauma of war that makes bonds difficult to break?

SpeakerC
9m 47s
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10m 0s

Because what you realize when you're in a war is that the people that are next to you, you rely on them, and they're relying on you to survive. And without them,

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